The LeadG2 Podcast
The LeadG2 Podcast is dedicated to helping sales organizations grow. Each week host Dani Buckley (VP/GM at LeadG2) discusses proven sales enablement strategies and real-life examples with experts and thought leaders from across industries.
The LeadG2 Podcast
The Future of SEO in an AI World with Tom Winter
In this episode, we’re discussing AI’s impacts on the world of SEO and what further changes can be expected down the road.
We ask questions like: What does the current state of SEO look like with the advent of so many AI technologies? How can marketers adapt their strategies to stay ahead of algorithm updates driven by AI? And how has AI affected the way content is created and optimized for search engines?
Joining Dani to answer those questions and more is Tom Winter, CGO at SEOWind.
Tom shares so many awesome points, like:
- How, while AI has genuine superpowers, the human touch still matters.
- Why it’s important to “live your KPI’s.”
- And, finally, how we’re currently living in a time where AI is giving everyone the ability to compete with much bigger marketing teams.
Welcome to the LeadG2 podcast, the show dedicated to helping sales organizations grow. Each week, host Dani Buckley discussed this proven B2B marketing and sales strategies and real life examples for experts and thought leaders from across industries. In this episode, we're discussing AI's impacts on the world of SEO and what further changes can be expected down the road. We ask questions like what does the current state of SEO look like with the advent of so many AI technologies? How can marketers adapt their strategies to stay ahead of algorithm updates driven by AI, and how has AI affected the way content is created and optimized for search engines? Joining Dani to answer those questions and more is Tom Winter, CGO at SEO Wind. Tom shares so many awesome points like how, while AI has genuine superpowers, the human touch still very much matters. How we're currently living in a time where AI is giving everyone the ability to compete with much bigger marketing teams. And, finally, how it's so important to live your KPIs.
Dani Buckley:All right, welcome Tom. Thanks so much for joining today. How are you?
Tom Winter:Really good. Thanks, Dani, for the invite, and it's really nice to be here.
Dani Buckley:Yeah, I'm excited for this conversation, so we're going to jump in Just to get everyone on the same page. Can you tell us just a little more about your areas of expertise? I know you've got a lot. Is there anything that you're feeling particularly excited or passionate about right now?
Tom Winter:So I'm a founder I'm a serial founder, actually, so I founded a lot of SaaS startups and right now I'm focusing on SEO Wind, which is a tool to help with generating content using AI and doing the research around it, just to nail the search intent and help out to build traffic. Me personally, I'm half a founder, half a developer, half a salesperson, half a marketer basically a generalist so I combine all these skills to build revenue and growth in the company.
Dani Buckley:I love that You're talking our language, mahira LeadG 2. So that's great. So we're going to talk a lot about SEO and AI in particular today. So let's start with how would you describe the current state of SEO and, keeping in mind with the influx of AI tools, where is that shaping things in your opinion?
Tom Winter:OK. So we all want to see that it all has changed right now, like in the last year, but, to be honest, we have to take into account that Google in my opinion, they didn't change their approach in the last 20 years. When they were starting, they said we want to get the best possible answers to the end user, and this is what's their goal. Like what went throughout the last 20 years, they became a better referee, and this is what's happening right now, like the whole thing sped up and we can see that Google is getting better and better in bringing helpful content. They even had a helpful content update in the last quarter to show the best possible answer to the end user. And this is what is changing. We want to bring the best possible answers to the users so they will get the answers as fast as possible, the best answers possible.
Tom Winter:What Google is doing right now, like you can also see that they're implementing Generative AI into search, but it will mainly focus on single click, like non-click searches.
Tom Winter:So when you have like an answer straight in Google and you'll be able to like get the answer there, but, like, most of them are really simple. So there's plenty of space for us here right now because, like, still, people want to read, like longer content that they will see on pages. Google can't implement it in Google because they can actually answer like three, five sentences, maybe like two, three paragraphs. So even let's go with, like an example of brisket If you want to make a perfect brisket, like, they will not be able to like add the whole recipe in Google. They will still point to the content that is writing about the recipe about the brisket, how to do it step by step, because they will not be able to implement it In Google. At the same time, they need sources of data so they can't kill the whole content. So there's plenty of space of developing in SEO world, but it's all about creating helpful content.
Dani Buckley:Got it, yeah, so you're kind of already touching on the next question I have, which is when we're thinking we're focusing on right that Google has always and for as long as we think well, we'll be focused on creating and delivering helpful content, right? That's how it works. So, with the rise of AI, we see that there's some shifts happening. So how do you think that AI has changed the way search engines rank and display results? So I guess, what implications does this have for SEO practitioners that are or just marketers, content creators, anyone really that is thinking of or is using AI for content creation? What do they need to be thinking about?
Tom Winter:So, basically, what AI helped? It helped on both sides of the fence. Let's say so on one side, analyzing the content from Google's perspective. So they're far better with identifying if something is helpful. So there will be no cheating there. Throughout last 20, 20-something years when Google was developing the algorithm, we could see phases where somebody wanted to cheat Google. Let's add additional backlinks, let's add hidden text inside, let's spam with a lot of content. And Google got better and better with being a referee.
Tom Winter:So what still stands is to create helpful content. So we have to think about how we can add value to the content and we have plenty of space there. So, for example, you're in sales, you have a lot of experience talking to the customers. Ai doesn't have that. So there's a lot of feedback that we can get from the product team, from customers, from our experience, our opinions, like we can add it all to the content to make it more helpful. Like from the side of content writers. Ai will definitely help to write content and write it in a better way. That is more digestible, both from the user's perspective and also from Google's perspective, because it will be based on the research. But we as humans, we can add a lot of value to that. We have to focus on helpful content, which is the king, and it actually brings a lot of traffic and it actually brings more traffic right now than we used to. I think there is a huge opportunity right now.
Dani Buckley:Yeah, I agree, and I think, if we really boil it down, tell me if you agree with this headline of really, it's just that we need to keep creating good content. We have new tools, new ways to do that, maybe do it faster or even do it better, but the human touch matters. What we have still matters and, at the end of the day, whether you wrote the content, whether you paid someone to write the content, whether you're using AI, if the content isn't actually good and helpful, it's not going to matter. Is that feel correct?
Tom Winter:Exactly. Basically, it will be moved out of the internet. The index not shown anywhere. But we have to be aware, like, what AI has. Ai has superpowers. Let's be honest, like AI is amazing, it has superpowers, but we have to take into account that we, as humans, we also have superpowers. So instead of fighting each other, like AI taking over humans jobs, or like, let's combine these two and let's work together.
Tom Winter:I call it like the cyber method. So basically work with AI in a team and this way we can amplify our ROI, like make our work just more productive. Let's give tasks that AI is good with to AI, because we can't compete with many things, and let's do the things that we're good at. So if we combine these two in any niche marketing, sales, like development, doesn't matter Like we can create kind of super humans that are far more productive. I love it. Couple of years ago, there was a term 10X developer, like I don't know if you heard about it. So it meant like there are 5% 1% developers on the market that then they can create 10X more ROI than anybody else. Right now, in my opinion, using AI, there can be 10X anybody.
Dani Buckley:Yeah, yeah, I love that, and that's kind of like I wanna jump to that next piece, which is you dive a little deeper into that. How is AI, or how can AI, affect the way that we're creating content that is optimized for search engines? So, dive a little more into that. I know that that's what you do. So tell us how that's working and how to do it well.
Tom Winter:So, basically what we try to do at the CWIND, we try to do the main research that we do using AI and also like normal ways of gathering data. So, to simplify it a little bit, I treat AI as a human, like. So one way to ask AI is just like and get information from AI is just to ask it and use it as a search engine. In my opinion, it's not the best way to do it, because if I would, for example, ask you about, like, some history facts that you learned 10 years ago in school, like, let's say, you probably would not be like 100% accurate with all the dates that you probably learned, just because you used this data to learn certain things and to resolve problems in the future. Like you know how to search for dates, like you would just Google them, but it doesn't mean that you memorized all the things in it. And the same goes with AI. So if we treat AI was trained like, let's say, on the whole internet, but it doesn't mean that it has the whole internet in one finger. It means that it has a logical way of thinking that it learned based on this data. So what you have to do with AI is bring in context. So if you're asking anything to AI, like, you have to give context of what do you want the answer to look like, so you can do it from your experience. Or we can do gathering, like we can gather the data, like when it comes to content writing.
Tom Winter:We, as SEO Wind, we try to gather the data that normally humans do. If you're writing an article, what you do as a human, you go to Google, you check, like many pages, what do they write about, just to know what's the search intent. You gather the data about the CEO, so you're looking for keywords. You're doing this, you're doing that and based on that, you're creating an article. Like you're not writing from top of your head, because that would be fluff. Like you're researching. Ai can't do the research on its own, so we have to do it for it. Like and it comes like it's in every niche. If you want to write like sales pitches, like you have to give context. Just don't ask it to write me a sales pitch, because that's like you wouldn't ask a human to do it like in this way.
Dani Buckley:Yeah, that makes total sense. I mean it's it's just really reinforces the importance of the right humans being the ones using the AI to for different Whatever it may be that you're creating, so that you can provide that context and and also the right prompts and the right like we're doing that. So, yeah, that makes total sense. Um, let's. I mean, I know you obviously have a tool that is AI, an AI tool, but are there? You can definitely speak to SEO win, but are there other specific AI tools or techniques that stand out to you Like for me, charge EPT is my best friend, like I'll be honest, like I'm talking to it every single day.
Tom Winter:So definitely use it. If you want to go into this field, like, use it and see how it works. But be aware of like, if you're not getting the proper answer, it's not the fault of charge EPT, mm-hmm, it's your fault. And if you have this approach, that means that, like, you will make it better. So that means like you didn't add enough context in you, you didn't Ask the right questions and so on. It's like working with a human. I treat it as a colleague in your team and if your colleague is not giving you proper answers, you probably asked the wrong question or you didn't provide all the context that you need, like. So the same goes with AI. Like treat, if it doesn't give you the answer that you want or you're looking for, probably you have to change the way you ask for it and probably provide a little bit more. So, definitely touch EPT. I would use it just to learn how AI works, what it does, what it's good at and what it's bad at, because it's bad at many things.
Dani Buckley:I love that and I think you know just like to our listeners because many are folks that are not necessarily the ones out there creating the, the marketing or sales content or you know needing to do this. But I want to kind of like and I've said this before on the podcast but I want to keep reinforcing it like just get in there and play with it and and Practice, like it does take practice, like you're saying, to kind of get used to what is the right information, what are the right questions, how do I respond? How do I relate with this person? Right, and so I just really like to encourage folks like just get a feel for it, try different things, whether it's like random personal things, like in your life, or Professional things. There's all kinds of ways just to kind of play with it and get a feel for it.
Tom Winter:I would add one thing on top of that like, don't expect to do it with one click, like, if you like, at the point, it's risky at the point that everything will be done at one click, like. With one click that means like we are all not, like we shouldn't be here, like we're not needed, right. So add value on top, like and you're able to have because you have superpowers, you have the experience like. You talked with customers, you talked with colleagues, you know far more about your business and everything that is close to you, like in any niche. So add this value and once you do it, it will speed up your work.
Dani Buckley:Yes, and I think that's the thing the least our approach to using AI at our company even was. We knew it could make us faster, but can we maintain or elevate the quality? And the answer is yes, you can absolutely, but you have to be committed to you're saying, to the practice, to doing it the right way, using the right tools, all of that.
Dani Buckley:It's not just be faster but not better. It needs to be both Great. So topic everybody wants to always get to is like KPIs metrics, you know, like what, what you know. The bottom line comes down to not just that we feel like we're achieving our goals, but are we so? Let's talk about that. So how should businesses measure the success of their SEO efforts in this kind of AI dominated environment? Are there new KPIs that are emerging? Do you think people should be looking at SEO and specifically SEO, but really anything that you want to touch on differently with AI in mind? Now?
Tom Winter:I think like I think it didn't change much because, like I have this approach that statewide we should have similar KPIs like so both marketing, sales, product and any other department like should have kind of umbrella KPIs that we will have and we can feel that we have impact on. So I love to track revenue because I feel that everybody can have impact on that and revenue drives business. That's easy. So, like, I love to give KPIs connected to that, but I understand that not everybody can feel the impact of their work on revenue. So what I like to do I'm a data driven person, so I like to introduce a leap of faith metrics, so something that I call like leap of faith metrics, which means, from data perspective, I know, let's say, with content marketing, if I drive additional X amount of traffic on my website, 1% of this traffic will become my customers. So I'm able to measure that. Like, if I add like additional 1000 organic traffic, I'll be able to impact my revenue.
Tom Winter:Because, from marketing perspective, if I only counted revenue, unfortunately the life cycle, sales cycle, takes about like three, four, five months, sometimes made sometimes like a year in some companies, so I would have to wait for the result a year, which makes no sense, like I can't measure, like that. That's why I like to use some metrics, but they have to impact my North Star metric and make them as easy to measure as possible. If you can't measure something, it's useless. And what I also like to do is I like to have a hypothesis, like whenever I like start a certain task, like a new project, I like to have a hypothesis in the beginning of the project how I will define the success, because if I don't define it in the beginning, I would justify the hell of it at the end and I'll prove that I'm right. Like always, because I'm a human, I like to be right. That's why I try to define success metrics in the beginning of projects. I love that. Sales marketing doesn't matter.
Dani Buckley:Yeah, I mean, this is the simple things that feel obvious but so many people aren't doing it. We see it every day where we come in and we work with clients and they're like I'm like what were the goals for this campaign? And they're like, well, we are just looking at the data as it's going on or whatever. So it's like these little reminders are actually really helpful and it's simple, but they're critical and they're often overlooked. And I particularly love that you said just make sure it's actually measurable, and that feels obviously like something that okay, duh, but people are doing that all the time. They're KPI tracking and things where they're like this actual particular KPI we can't really track. If it's 70% accurate, then why are we tracking it?
Tom Winter:And live the KPIs. Live them, digest them every single day, go back to them every week, let's say In a team, talk about them. Say how you impacted your KPIs this week. You didn't do anything, that's okay, but just say it out loud. I didn't impact my KPIs. Don't start with defining KPIs and then look at them in three months. That makes no sense.
Dani Buckley:Yeah, absolutely Great. So we've covered a lot and I think there's some really good kind of like bottom line things. One, use AI, but use it well, use it wisely, don't be dependent on it without the human touch and advisement, and I love the thing. I want to also like repeat the thing that you said, like it's not a one click solution. I think everyone needs to hear that over and over again. People are assuming AI is just going to get smarter. I just put in this thing and it gives me exactly what I need, and that's not actually the goal of AI. Is what you're saying, right.
Tom Winter:Not yet, at least. Yeah, exactly.
Dani Buckley:We'll cross that bridge when we get there. So, to kind of close this out, is there any other key pieces of advice or just like best practices that you want to add to our, for our listeners whether they're business leaders, content creators, marketers, sales, whoever Is there anything that you want to kind of close out and make sure people know that you're thinking about?
Tom Winter:So, basically, if you are thinking about, like, using AI, like any kind of AI is it like chat, gpt, seo, wind or any other tool Like, just stop thinking, like and just do it and start working with it, like and play around with it, because right now there is an opportunity on the market to actually use it and amplify your ROI like, amplify your productivity in the company, like.
Tom Winter:If you wait, maybe that ship will sail away because, like, there's a lot of companies that are currently using it and I feel that we are able to compete with much, much bigger teams, like what I'm doing right now in a team of 10 people, I was doing earlier in my company, like in a team of 50. So there's so much opportunity in that. Don't be afraid, you will make mistakes. That's normal, that's okay. Everybody makes mistakes. Don't be afraid of doing them, because then you can learn how to do it in the proper way. But start using the opportunity that we have right now because, like, there's still much space to grow in sales and marketing and content marketing in SEO, but I don't know for how long it will be, because maybe a lot of people will catch up.
Dani Buckley:Yeah yeah, that's great, great advice. I love it and I hope our listeners take it Well. Thank you so much, tom, for joining us. It was so nice to chat with you and I really appreciate all of your insights and expertise.
Tom Winter:Thanks, thanks, danny, like it was really amazing to talk to you and hopefully it was useful for people. Yeah, I feel like it was Great.
Dani Buckley:So you can connect with Tom. His contact information is in our show notes, his business website, all of that. Be sure to check that out. And, for those listening, we look forward to seeing you on the next episode. Until then, happy selling.
Tom Winter:Thanks a lot, cheers.
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